Deliverability Leaders Panel

Clea Moore 0:09
Welcome, everyone. And thank you for joining us for The deliverability panel today. There have been some fantastic deliverability sessions over the past few days and hopefully you've had a chance to attend those. For this session we'll be taking all of that great advice and applying it to the current climate and how it pertains to some of the challenges that our marketing clients have been facing. But we'd like to keep it conversational. So please add questions to the chat and we'll be answering those towards the end of our session. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce my fellow panellists. Today we have Chaitanya Chinta from Netcore, also known as CC, and CC brings in over 15 years of experience in building anti spam filters, analytics and deliverability solutions. He has email business for Netcore. Welcome to the next we have Pat. Next we have Patrick Knight from Adobe. Patrick is a veteran deliverability expert with over 18 years of experience in resolving complex email deliverability challenges, and a proven track record of spearheading strategies that enhance cost effectiveness, deliverability and visibility of email communication. Welcome, welcome, Patrick.

Patrick Knight 1:22
Thank you.

Clea Moore 1:24
Next we have Arun Kumar from Zoho. A rune has been in the field of email deliverability for over six years. And he specialised in planning, developing, implementing and maintaining email delivery and deliverability performance. Currently, he's working as the deliverability, product manager for Zoho campaigns, an email marketing platform for Zoho suite. And lastly, my name is Cleo Moore. I'm a senior email deliverability, strategy consultant for Oracle cx marketing. I've been an email space for over a decade, and I support a number of large brands in various verticals in achieving basically the right balance between meeting their business goals and also protecting their email reputation and performance. So with that, we'll dive in. And as we all know, email as the landscape is always evolving, and there's certainly been a significant shift over the last year with COVID. I don't think there's been any company that wasn't impacted in some way. There's certainly been a greater reliance on digital to connect with consumers. And so the role of email has really changed. And I think it's gonna stay that way for a while. So the question then is, how do you adapt how they've been adapting? What does that what does that look like? Depending on your vertical? What are the what are the, you know, challenges moving forward? So with our first topic, we'd like to kind of get into what that looks like from maybe a brick and mortar perspective. So Patrick, I know you are we work with a lot of retailers, brick and mortar retailers, what's that been like for you, in terms of, you know, that impactful COVID? And how you've helped people kind of get back to where they need to be?

Patrick Knight 3:07
Yeah, so it's interesting, we've seen quite a few clients that, you know, they had their retail, so that retail brick and mortars, and they've shifted to online stores, and you see some of this decline happened. It's interesting, because you would think, for those type of retail stores, they really experienced that impact there. And they've learned to adjust, which is great. I think one of the other things, too, is when it came to comms everyone sitting at home, they're more online, they're buying things online. And so because of that, there's that shift, right. So that makes email a little bit more relevant in that respect. So we start to see where subscribers, the email, the will open rates and engagement to pick up. But at the same time, we did see where some retailers were not as resilient. And so because of that, they started to send less email, right? So even stocks, and you know, that that can be a detriment to your to your reputation. And so that's what you have to think about. So some of the things that we've advised was to look at your mailing cadence, and not necessarily stop your emails, stop sending email, but lower your traffic. You want to make sure that you're sending that relevant data that relevant subject lines, and so on and so forth. So this is not an opportunity for you to just start sending out a whole bunch of emails and taking advantage of the fact that everyone's at home, you still want to have that same engagement, same everything else, while keeping that reputation and the IPS in the domain, right. Anyhow, that drops because these mailbox providers, pretty much you know, As you know, fluctuation in traffic can definitely damage that. So if you want to keep at least even if you're going to, I wouldn't say stop setting, but continue that same path of just constantly sending over and over again. And for some of those clients that actually did stop sending, we did talk about having more of a reengagement, and kind of almost like a rewarming plan. That way, there's a small transition back into what they previously were doing. But of course, it's obviously going to change for the long haul. So

Clea Moore 5:33
yeah, yeah, I did, I definitely experienced some of that with my clients. So I work with some large travel companies. So as you can imagine, there was a pause on all promotional campaigns last year, and then it was, we need to get all these important service communications out about cancellations and things like that. And then it was really quiet for a while. And so it was some of that, you know, how do you slowly ramp back up again, and you do have to do that carefully. So I think it threw a lot of people for a loop not knowing how to react, what to do what to think about, you know, there's so many moving pieces. And certainly, in terms of the brick and mortar retailers, I also work with some of those and, and it was a very different, you know, it was it was okay, we're moving everything to digital, we need to focus solely on email, we need to get more email out the door, we're getting all of this, you know, pressure down from from the sea levels. So how do we optimise that, and then you sort of add in this, you know, that current environment, which is that there's a lot more intimacy and and you know, this, like personal connection, where you're trying to see as I think Lauren put in one of our sessions yesterday, you know, see them as human beings, and so how do you like incorporate that into your targeting, you know, if there's just so many things, I think it really afforded a lot of senators the opportunity to take a step back and really look at how they've been targeting even the ones that had just been batching blasting, right, like, how can we get more personalised? How can we develop our programmes, especially if you're in this position of low somewhat, you know, so you have the resources to be able to dive in and say, you know, maybe we need to look at the customer lifecycle a little bit more closely have some of those reengagement you know, programmes in place, like you're talking about? Yeah, definitely.

Patrick Knight 7:18
But what about their emails, a two way communication? Right? I think that a lot of these, I think what COVID has done is really shown, the world or most marketers across the globe, this, this is a communication channel, it is not just Hey, just take this information. And that's it. It's more interactive, that's what it should be. And I think this has really helped them to really think about that, and think about it as your subscribers as human beings to and that just outside. So

Chaitanya Chinta 7:50
maybe I'll just add a couple points there. Yeah. So you know, in the, in the batch of customers that we work with, right, we've seen a shift in the kind of messaging that that brands were doing earlier, they're mostly focusing on, you know, sending the offers or more ROI driven campaigns. And from there, I think there's, there's been a shift to use email as more like a branding channel. You know, branding, or building the brand equity, is what I think the brands have started focusing on. And, and, you know, coming to the brick and mortar companies, you know, a lot of brands that, that have been heavily offline, they're moving online now. And since they're just moving online, I think, you know, some of the challenges that we encountered were a lot of email addresses that were collected in the, in the, in the offline stores, when the moment they tried to send emails, I think, you know, there have been certain challenges in in terms of delivery and all of that. And, of course, we we've guided them through all the best practices, and then, you know, walking them through all the initial hurdles to get there, you know, streamlining their their entire email programme. But I think these these, these are some of the friendships that we've seen, you know, with the travel companies, they've completely stopped emails, and of course, you know, in fact, some of the travel companies shifted their, you know, mails from sending travel emails to doing some CSR, CSR type of campaigns. And then and then gradually moving on to when they when the, you know, when the market has started opening up. You know, they started, they started rebuilding their engagement. as Patrick rightly said, I think they we had to drive them through some reengagement campaigns. And then, you know, we had to rebuild their entire, you know, user base, from where they left, left maybe a year ago, and then we started rebuilding their entire user base. So that's that's definitely been the trend that we've seen.

Clea Moore 9:54
Yeah. That's such a great point. Absolutely. Yeah. Being able to target those people that you haven't talked Doing a long time. So how do you restart a conversation? Really, it's almost a restart of like, Hey, we're, we're still here, this is what's happening with us. And I think you're really right is keeping that sort of branding messaging going was a way to still interact with people without making it feel salesy. And that's really what successful marketers were doing. Yeah. Great.

Arun Kumar 10:21
Yeah, thanks, I would like to add a couple of points, we will not take any of your point of view, like, there are many type of business now they, they want to connect as possible with their customers. And, of course, many of the, you know, business types, like, you know, travel agencies, or any retailers or something like that, they want to promote their business through, you know, of course, through email marketing. And in fact, email marketing is one of the new great, great way to keep them up to date, with the latest offers out to how exactly they can, they can promote their business and, you know, improve the sales and all this stuff. So they need to understand like how exactly the ISP is, with no filtering system exactly works. Because like, like, you know, like, in the previous commands, they completely stop sending campaigns or completely stop sending emails. And now they want to, you know, come back with the, the same amount, or the same volume of winner campaigns. So they have to consider about the authentication, the domain reputation and sending patterns or practices. So only these will, you know, help them to be no solve the problem. So we we actually have, you know, a couple of users, those who have no stop emailing, and they will be back to the track, and we, we advise them, and we, you know, set their patterns, and we give them back to the track.

Clea Moore 11:48
Absolutely, yeah, the education piece piece that you were talking about is so key. I feel like one of the things that actually came up for me today, if you're still relevant is that, you know, it's an ongoing thing, too. So it's not just you have customers who don't have this experience, and you're trying to help them pave the way and really figure out, you know, best practices from the ground up. But also, if you have an existing client, who has new leadership, you know, the executive level or your day to day contacts change, then, you know, it's sort of a start from scratch, you're like, as a deliverability expert in this in this, like, trying to help write the ship, you know, and the bigger the ship, the harder it is to sort of get back on track when ships like that happen. But but but certainly, yeah, I mean, that's, that's a major challenge that comes up for me all the time. So it's, you know, almost having some sort of resource, you know, available ready to go of, Hey, this is like a one cheater on this is how we approach this type of campaign and why this is how we target and why. So that there's just this easy continuous flow of Okay, we get over on the same page, and we don't have to start from scratch. Every time somebody comes on board. It's a little bit different. If it's the executive shift, obviously, that's a bigger conversation. But you know, being able to tell some of the history having any of that sort of ready to go of like, Hey, we had a scam house, spam house listing two years ago, this is what happened to our business. This is how we work out of that and where we are now and why. So I think that's really important.

Patrick Knight 13:16
Yeah, I also think this is something that should be done on a regular basis when it comes to re engaging, right? So it's all about maintenance, this should be going on, right, in terms of that education piece. No, again, I think it really depends. A lot of times, you would have to marry that back to the financial impact, right? So how does this help you with your ROI? How does this How does this all tie in together? And I think that once you speak that language, it then all comes together, and it makes perfect sense versus just saying, hey, do this thing is just reengaged not realising the long term benefits there? You know what I mean? So absolutely. Agree.

Clea Moore 13:57
Yeah. And so, I always get the question, too, when when brands are starting to clean up their programmes, and trying to figure out where or even somebody who's very new to the space and trying to understand best practices, I get the question of where do we start? You know, there's all these there's all these greats, deliverability best practices and programmes you should have in place, but what's the most important thing? So we'd love to hear from you guys kind of what what that you know, is for you and what you would what you advise

Chaitanya Chinta 14:25
data, stop at the data. Stop. Maybe that's that's the first point you can use start off. Right. Right. Getting getting the getting the right kind of users is absolutely absolutely important. You want your data problem and everything else, you know, falls in place automatically. That's what I feel, right? So that's what that's what I recommend, let's say you know, if if they've already have, you know, loads of data and you know, they have enough information On the way this user is signed up from, and then you know what, what is it? What are the kinds of confirmation or the confidence level that we have on the user is definitely something that I probably look for. And not just on the signup source, again, mapping it up with all the other attribute attribute data that that the brand would have collected over a period of time, right? Whether it is the purchase history, or whether it is even the browsing history, tie up, everything ties everything together to form a sort of a unified view, and then, you know, that gives more confidence in which, which, which you can actually target those users. So that's what I'd say.

Clea Moore 15:38
Yeah, absolutely agree. I

Arun Kumar 15:43
mean, yeah, I will probably need to know like, we will look into the data as well as we ask them to, you know, complete the setup with the SPF and gimr demark, all the setups first in place. So only then the ISP is, you know, what the filtering system will it will give the, you know, trusted value to the domain. And, and we ask them, how clear the data the average, if they are very old data, do they have concerned to send the emails to the recipients or not? And based on that, we ask them to know segment the list. And so I will start with the you know, account setup and the domain setup. And going forward, I will go with the data and unstart sending in a minimum level of campaign how exactly the recipients were no reacting to the emails. And based on that I will, you know, configure the programme.

Clea Moore 16:36
Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, started off on the right foot, basically, making sure you have everything buttoned up before you hit the ground. Running. Yep. Patrick, what about you?

Patrick Knight 16:48
Yeah, they have to bring in data, it's all in the data, right? Even we're doing you're doing any engagement or any kind of warming or anything to that effect, you really want to think about it because you know, when it comes to, you would always warm up, my deliverability is off or something's wrong. Yeah, it's possible. There's, there's things that happen outside that may cause other you know, outside influences and things that may cause problems, but it really is about the data itself. garbage in garbage out kind of thought, right? So, really want to think about? Does it make sense to hold on to this, this data that's gonna hurt you? Right? Do you want to, you may want to start thinking about how could I monetize on this? Yes, but in a safe way, looking at the data? How can I contact the subscribers? What would be the best strategy? What's the best way to go about this? Do I just send it all? In one batch? Do I mix this traffic? Do I show different? Do I send to a different cadence when it comes to the subscribers? So yeah, definitely your data has got to be the number one thing that a lot of times does make or break deliverability. But then there's other factors. But yeah, like, at the end of the day, I mean, that's, that's really pretty much what's gonna be.

Clea Moore 18:09
Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah, and to flip it on its head a little bit, you know, I also run into this situation of people that maybe have, you know, come into it as a as a new employee, or something that like that to take over the programme, but it's already set up, it's already, like humming. So, you know, they've got everything buttoned up. They've got really high open rates, they've got, you know, really great performance, very low bounce rates, everything's looking good from an inbox placement and reputation standpoint. But then it's, then it's the sort of how do you Where do you go from there? Right? Clearly, that means, you know, that there's maybe like, an opportunity that you're missing. So what are those opportunities? And do you know, do you ever run into that with your clients where, you know, you're sort of pushing them you're at this point where, look, your performance is, is stellar, and this is great that you have a 50% open rate, but who are we potentially missing out on? contacting? Like, are there other opportunity opportunities that we're missing? And so what kind of programmes should you have in place to capture those people? So you run into that?

Maybe I see I have you know, that's that's a that's an interesting you know, situation. So what what we see is that whenever a new new person takes over email marketing, right, so the first challenge that I see the knowledge transfer, you know, the person who would have said set it up completely from from the ground up, you know, he would have the complete hands on knowledge on how many of the kinds of moments he would have put up for the for the, for the brand and, you know, the entire life's customer lifecycle journeys and everything, and somewhere somewhere when the new person comes in, that entire knowledge doesn't get transferred. So that's that we Well, that's, that's a that's a challenge that we see. And then you know, that that we sort of educate the customer on that friend, but on a performance side, usually, you know, And of course, the When, when, especially when the performance is stellar, I think what what we, what we suggest is to is to look hard and create, you know, more moments with, with your customer in terms of wind up in terms of let's say, you know, identifying those those, you know, identifying those areas where we can make, we can create those specialised moments for a particular user, right. So, you know, let's say, when you look at the US and the entire user base, you know, there are some there are some there is a part of user base who contributes to a good portion of the revenues, and then there are part of user base, which is not contributing to a portion of revenues. And what is that? What is that? What is that segment that the customer is more interested in, and let's work towards that, and then let's create those, and especially as moments for them to, you know, do better. So I think that's, that's the kind of approach that we took.

Arun Kumar 21:00
Yeah. So while we, we, we, you know, onboard the customers, we will take a chance to, you know, sit and work with them, we try to analyse, we try to understand how their performance where the previous platform or how exactly their campaigns have been performing, you know, with the major mailbox providers, so what their open rate percentage and what says, No click rates and all this stuff? And we will like, No, we will, we will ask them to bring in all the context, we will segment the context, and we will try to, you know, send out, which are the contexts that were they recently, you know, contact them and we'll check whether their open rates have been no matches or not, if it is lower than we probably look into it, what exactly happening, how they mailbox service providers were reacting to these email streams, because the only sending IP differs, right? The same content the same, you know, contact list, but only the sending IP will be differs. So we will try to analyse whether, you know, these, the present open days are matching to their existing open data on the same campaigns. If it if it differs, and probably went to liquid look into it, what how exactly the mailbox code is react to react into it. And from there, we can take this forward.

Clea Moore 22:19
Yeah. Patrick, I know your camera was out. I think you hopefully you heard that. Dude, did you want to chime in on that one? In terms of if you have? Yeah.

Patrick Knight 22:32
Let's have

Clea Moore 22:34
sorry, if you have basically we're talking about know that the opposite. So somebody who's not a train wreck somebody who looks great. So you have this client that you're trying to take to the next level, basically. But how do you how do you take those steps?

Patrick Knight 22:45
So you know, the thing about this is I actually specialise in enablement. That's like one of my biggest things for me, right? And love to educate people about deliverability. Because it's such a niche thing. It's not even as if it's something that's taught in colleges or you know, but I think, once you start to tie everything together and show them, hey, here's what this really means. This is what these are, what these metrics means. So sometimes people will look at open rates different from the way deliverability people do, maybe delivery rates differently, right? There's all these online tools that you can use reputation tools, I recently had a client where I'm working with them, and they absolutely know, zero about deliverability. And this is something that was just dropped on their heads. And now it's like, what do I do, my boss is yelling at me, and I don't know what's going on. And so after really talking them through things, and helping to understand this is your reputation. This is what it means. This is where your reputation is tied to your domain and your IP, here's how you can maintain that. And very point blank, you know, poor reputation gives you bad deliverability, which impacts ROI, you're speaking their language at that point. Of course, they're gonna get very interested and say, Okay, well, how do we not have something impact my ROI. So there's the conversation and how everything kind of blends together. And I think it's really about just starting with the basics, don't get too, too detail. But starting out with the basics and showing them this is how you connect the dots as to what the results you're looking for, and how it ties back into into what you're doing on a regular basis and how you're hurting yourself. And here's some different things that you can do to improve things and maintain things if anything. So

Clea Moore 24:29
yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's also been some shifts in the mailbox provider side so we've got amp obviously we've heard a lot about that. We've got Philly, we've got, you know, the Yahoo sort of fields, we're using schema. So you know, what's the opportunity there? How do you you know, talk through the ROI with your customers I that I find to be one of the biggest challenges is trying to tie ROI when you're having that's the key metric that they want to hear. How do you explain this should be a priority for you because it's going to give you x y, z. So because we find it I mean, as an email nerd, I find it very interesting and exciting to to leverage all these things that I'm trying to promote them. But that's that's sometimes the gotcha that I run into. It's sort of like, you know, a chicken and an egg, you need to have the evidence to show that it's gonna work. But to get the evidence you need to claim it has that been a challenge for you to to get that kind of adoption or to feel like that's been pretty, pretty easy.

Patrick Knight 25:26
Was that towards me? Or was that?

Clea Moore 25:29
Just probably to the gap? I know that you you've, especially with Benny, I know you've worked on promoting Vimeo a lot. That's an easier one maybe to put in place, depending on your your setup.

Patrick Knight 25:39
I Well, I think in terms of Vinnie, so here's the thing. You're right, there's a challenge, because we don't really have too many metrics around it just as yet. Right, in terms of, does it really improve open rates? You know, do we do we have those those benchmark that benchmark data yet? No, not necessarily? Will it hurt? No. I think even with COVID, and even reengaging, as we talked about this whole re engaging and getting back into the field of things, I think bimi would help. Because again, it's going back to that whole communication, that that one to one communication, almost that, you know, understanding your subscribers and that trust and that building that brand that they're seeing on a regular basis. So I think that again, it may not help or may not be we can't necessarily tie some some hardcore percentages around this. But I do think it is something that would help in terms of that re engaging after everything has kind of settled out or maybe even our new one, right. So that's one thing. And there's some other things that, you know, I think that Vinnie is eventually going to, to bring to the table, there's only what three items right now that's actually using it, I think even Gmail is still in beta, if I'm not mistaken. But as this becomes more adopted, I think it's going to become a norm. And it's something that we should start from now just a habit, right, so that we can get these benchmarks and things like that later on and say, well, it has actually improved my deliverability. So

Clea Moore 27:12
yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah, but it's certainly not going to hurt. So depending on the ease of implementation, you know, your setup, I mean, for example, we have demark reject policies in place for our clients automatically. So then you've already got that box checked, and it's just a matter of putting the record in place. And, you know, certainly for Yeah, for Google, it seemed like a few more hoops to jump through, I'm curious to see what happens with the verified Mark certificate to see I mean, eventually is a paid thing. So is that a pay to play? And how does that come in? You know, so it'll be interesting to see what happens there.

Chaitanya Chinta 27:49
Yeah, go ahead. Okay, so Well, that's definitely interesting in terms of, you know, how the, you know, VMC will, will start playing out. But what, what we, when we talk to our customers, we have, what we say is, it's more about giving the experience to the user, to the user, whether it is premium, whether it is and, you know, it's about giving that experience to the user. And mostly, what we see is most most, most, you know, companies who are adopting to cutting edge technologies were like, no, the product guys are the truth managers who are like, no tech savvy, they sort of lap it up. But then again, when it comes to traditional brands, they are sort of, you know, slow and lethargic. And then they would want to definitely look at some numbers on the table, on how it drives the ROI. Again, it differs from brand to brand, but I believe brands who care about more modern user experience, they will definitely be up for the adoption.

Arun Kumar 28:46
Yeah, no, they don't. That is how they bring the build trust on their brand, right to the mailbox service providers. And that is where they will go for a complete authentication setup. So yes, if they, you know, lousy brand, they have to, you know, go with this.

Clea Moore 29:08
Absolutely. Yeah. And let's see if other topics. I mean, I know one of the things that we kind of threw around was what keeps you up at night. I'm sort of following along the mailbox provider theme, one of the things that I think probably one of the only things that keeps me up at night is we know that potential for the email tracking pixels to disappear, because that's sort of out there. Obviously, privacy is a very big concern. We want to make sure people are getting permission. And so does that come into play with that type of data? And therefore, you know, does that sort of blow up how we do our targeting currently, because when we think about trying to target people who are interested in our mail, and having the best, strongest signal, that's one of the strongest signals that we use currently. So what replaces that, what does that look like? That's something that I've already kind of figured fear of that happening.

Patrick Knight 30:06
So I don't think you're alone, there is something that I think keeps all of us up at night only because I mean, this is what we rely on. Um, I do have everything that just open rates, it would, I would say, would be the biggest metric that we're looking at here, right. However, along with open rates, we also have clicks, which is another form of engagement that we need to look at. In fact, I would think that clicks would be just a little bit more interactive or more engaging there, because it's a click, it's an actual, you know, function that someone's doing there, right, just not opening the email. So that's one or the other, I would say, and I'm not a fan of looking at just online purchases, and things like that, but looking at other avenues, other metrics, behaviour patterns of purchase, for example, site activity, marrying that data together, and then again, creating a nice, good picture of what's going on. Yeah, so and then you also have the Verizon service that's out that's out there, that kind of that can kind of compensate and show some of this stuff as well. But I would say open, definitely, that goes away, we wouldn't have to really rely more so on these other metrics. And I think we should be doing that now. Right? Why aren't we doing that? Now? That's something that we definitely have to focus on. today. We do have the open issue now it's like, okay, but we still have these metrics. So

Chaitanya Chinta 31:40
yeah. Yeah, I think we're good. Yeah. So I think the one the one thing

Patrick Knight 33:47
but the zillion emails that they should have their reputations damaged, because that, in some cases, let's just say for Gmail, just for example, you ruin that reputation, you're looking at anywhere between three months to six months to resolve that problem. So and it's painful to see a substitute, you know, to see a client go through that because of the mistake and the risks that they you know, committed to there. And now getting out of that hole and also the financial impact that comes along with that right so I think that's the one thing that does me so

Clea Moore 34:28
yeah, what's good saying it's something like it takes it takes a long time to build a good email reputation a very short time to destroy it. dig your way back out of that hole. Yeah. So the key is that you need to deliverability experts that you can consult in some way or for shape or form. Um, I guess along those lines, you know, we've talked a little bit about KPIs but what are the KPIs or, or, or data points that you guys really focus on when you're when you're trying to you know, make that determination of performance?

Patrick Knight 35:03
Well, I look at a few different things. Not only just one thing, obviously we look, I look at the basics, your delivery rate, not deliverability rate, but delivery rate, your your opens. And then we look at me look historically, are these open rates and click rates comparable to what you've seen all along? But is there anything different? Have they dropped far below what your standard is? In terms of benchmarks? You look at complaints have to look at that, right? Are we seeing an increase in complaints? Are we seeing an increase in, you know, unsubscribes, these are things or metrics I look at, I didn't take external reputation sources and take a look at that as well. And then I also take it even down to the, the segment level, because you can have four different emails that go out within the same timeframe, or the same IP overseeing domain. But out of all these campaigns, there's probably one or two that have the issue about overall. So it's really about getting granular looking at all of that, and then marrying that information together, subject line, so and so forth. And that's how I'm able to assess a lot of things, see what goes wrong, and right there. So you know, that's, that's pretty much high level that I would do but have my other ways, the other things that look at, but not close, of course, what we're seeing how frequently where it's coming from the very particularised piece in their behaviour patterns.

Clea Moore 36:31
Yeah, mine is very similar to yours. I could probably that's such a good point is knowing how, yeah, yeah.

I just had one point there, you know, I, maybe the way I look at some of these metrics is to look for trend shifts, you know, more than different examples I looked at over a period of time, how is how's the trend moving? Is it is it? Is it up? Is it an uptrend or a downtrend? uptrend is always good, but then at the moment, it's a downtrend. I think, you know, that's, that's where I think we need to step in. And of course, we do, too, we have to do that granular analysis to identify the root cause and fix that. Yeah. But a trend shift is something that that, that, that I've watched closely.

Patrick Knight 37:18
And what's interesting about that, you could actually have higher complaints, maybe just two campaigns or three days before, and then you would look Three days later, and you're like, wait a minute, this is not the campaign that impacted anything. It was the one from three days ago. And you could actually correlate that information.

Clea Moore 37:35
And benchmarking along with the trends because the Gmail issue back in December, oh my gosh, all these hard bounces. What's up? Everybody? Yeah. So knowing how you're performing your vertical or just in general? Yeah. So

Arun Kumar 37:49
yeah. So they were, you know, additional tools were available, right? Like Google postmaster tool. And, you know, Microsoft is India's reports with if we look at those, you know, data's probably going to be more easier to, you know, explain the customer or explain the user setting like, this is where, you know, you change your patterns, eating patterns, and that is where it started affecting you. Right? So you need to you know, segment your contacts or you need to look into your, you know, domain reputation, if it goes down, and this is what the practices that are being followed and it has to be know, corrected, only then you can be able to back to the track, right.

Clea Moore 38:24
Yeah. I know, we're out of time. It's a pleasure speaking with you all. Thank you so much for joining me on the panel today. Obviously, having a deliverability expert is key. A big thank you to Nely and Andrew from email expert for coordinating this fabulous virtual event. And last but not least, thank you to all of you who joined to listen in. We would love to hear from you. So please get in touch with us and thanks again.